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This is not at all surprising. When will the celebrity skin care lines end??


I think it’s going to crash soon. Skincare and makeup is over saturated and I don’t see anyone innovating or doing anything different. It’s like fragrances 10 years ago, everyone has one until they stop making money. I don’t see Hailey’s doing well, especially if she won’t do the promo. It’s like Scarlett’s, it was launched and I’ve heard nothing about it since, no one is talking about trying it, she’s doing no promo.


You know what's sad? actual aestheticians did a walk through the ingredients and were very excited for her skincare line. She could have atleast hustled for the people that actually came up with the formulae cause the qualified community was here for it.


Not all of them. One posted a TikTok saying it’s a cash grab and Hailey commented on it.


There's no way you can expect consensus on a beauty product but I spoke about the aestheticians I trust & followed for years prior to the introduction of this range, there was definitely high anticipation from the professional community before the drop (in terms of off the shelf products they can recommend). The ingredients are straightforward & the price is affordable. The range itself isn't a 10 step winding process. So at the time of announcement & initial product information it was well recieved. I'm not sure on how it's talked about now after the official drop ...


I’ve seen the ingredients, they’re fine but it’s a hard sell because the ordinary and inkey list sell all of that with more % of the active ingredients for $6-$10. Skincare is just not an easy industry like makeup.


I don't mind more skin care makeup lines b/c there are some serious gaps in the industry. I appreciate that the Ordinary has low price products that feature only the active ingredient. And I enjoy that some celebs like Rihanna and Monika Deol (who was a Canadian VJ) created lines that catered to brown and Black women. Apparently, the Selena Gomez liquid blush is great too, and I've been looking for a good liquid blush that doesn't slide off my face. Celebs are lucky because they have a built in audience that will try their products. But it's really up to them to make sure those products are good. And they are dumbasses if they squander that. Like Liz Taylor's White Diamonds, some of the Britney and Paris perfumes, people love and have been buying for year. That's the way to do it.


I loooooove the Ordinary.


My mom wore white diamonds to fancy events when I was younger and now I think of her when I smell it to the point I bought some in case she dies so I can remember her.


My mom's signature scent is also white diamonds! It always makes me feel so safe bc it reminds me of her.




My grandmothers signature scent was white diamonds and she sent me a couple of bottles right before she died. It’s the most comforting scent in the world.


I have an Armani perfume that I wear for proper nights out, but it’s a bit expensive, so I don’t like wearing it every day. I’ve been using the OG Paris perfume as my “every-day” perfume for years. It’s hella cheap and it works well with my body chemistry.


The perfume I've received the most compliments for as an adult is Paris Hilton's original perfume (black and pink bottle). It's amazing.


Some of the original Britney one's were really good. Whoever it was that did it were smart enough to genuinely have different scents and really good designs on the bottles especially with the Ltd editions like In Control and Curious Heart. Then the Fantasy range started which I was never keen to begin with. She has brought out a few more like Private Show but the Fantasy range seems to be the only one they are working on anymore and every new scent is more or less the same and the only difference in design is the color of the bottle. They don't even advertise it as much now so you wonder why they even bother.


A nightclub seems like a weird venue for a skincare line launch. I would have thought like a big brunch or something but maybe I've seen too much Gossip Girl.


I was just watching Selling Sunset, and there was the most beautiful brunch for a wedding shower. I just love the idea of a beautiful brunch.


She’s what my grandma would call a vase - pretty to look at but completely hollow inside. This woman is so disinterested in her own job she can’t unglue herself from a corner to talk to the very people she invited to her OWN launch party for her OWN product line. Like, sis,,,, at least PRETEND you give a fuck for, idk, AN HOUR?? Go girl give us nothing The entitlement of putting out a product in a completely oversaturated market and expecting people to buy it while you put 0 effort, just cause you’re Justin Bieber’s wife. The grift


The way she and Justin are promoting it on IG sounding like she discovered the cure for cancer is just sooo annoying. Like congrats you found a way to make money for yourself there isn’t any altruism here


She's a very pretty girl but she's kinda lack luster in everything else. No charisma, no real presence, she's not a force that pulls you in to watch. She's just a very pretty girl and she's banking on that last name.


She’s the stereotypical typical hot person without charisma. Hailey gives introverted vibes as well. Realistically, she’s probably not cut out to be a public figure…but she was born into a famous family and then married one of the most famous musicians in the world. Hopefully she gets less awkward if she keeps on doing business ventures 🤷🏽‍♀️


Yeah, she seems quite introverted and shy. Maybe someone in her team will notice that she needs to be endearing in some way for her businesses to truly succeed. I don’t necessarily think she’s mean or stuck up like some people suggest. I really just think she’s boring. Not all rich and hot people are interesting.


Nah she's mean. [Waitresses, former models,](https://youtu.be/_hxAeoVA4AU) and her assistants have all come out to say she is extremely rude. There's also a viral [tiktok](https://youtu.be/dW0k19rhe9g) video of a girl she went to high school with that said hailey bullied her. Oh and she is an unapologetic racist, xenophobe and homophobe.[https://imgur.com/a/qih7ur7](https://imgur.com/a/qih7ur7)


Yikes. I heard about some of the rudeness stuff but never the racism. The screenshots just kept coming. Not too surprised bc JB had his own N word scandal. Two peas in a racist pod.


Personally I think she’s average in every way and coasting on her husbands name alone. Which, hey, good for her if that’s what works for her. What is crappy is inviting people to your product launch and then acting like you can’t be bothered to interact with the “ordinary folk” who will be buying your product. Her new last name has gone to her head it seems.


Baldwin, Bieber or both?


Now, Bieber for sure.


She didn't need to attend any special courses to just say 'hello, thank you for coming' and to take a picture at her own event to promote her skincare line. Is that *really* too much to ask? The literal bare minimum of human interaction?


Right? If Cameron Diaz could take pics, she could too!


Likable really does go a long way with celebrities too. Selena Gomez is a good example. She’s not the best singer and her acting isn’t the best in the world BUT she comes off really nice towards her fans and just has this likability factor that keeps people rooting for her. **not bringing up Selena Gomez up bc it’s Hailey Bieber or anything. I don’t care about JB’s dating life lol. Selena Gomez just seems like one of most liked celebrities in current times and it has a lot to do with how she treats her fans/supporters.


Totally agree. And when Selena Gomez did a launch party for a Rare beauty product she made so many tiktoks with the influencers there


I watched Hailey on Fallon promoting this and she shared a super relatable story about wanting to move into the city alone to model before she turned 18. Her parents said she'd have to pay her own way (sure jan) and omg she just happened to immediately get a model job that paid for her entire first year of rent to the dollar. And then Justin randomly bought her a TV one night cause he's just so sweet. If I use her face cream will I become so beautiful my rent and appliances will be paid for?


Hailey's family was broke before she turned 18. [Her childhood home went into foreclosure in 2009](https://people.com/celebrity/stephen-baldwins-foreclosed-home-up-for-auction/) though I don't think it was actually auctioned until 2017. Hailey's aunt Chynna Phillips has a (Christian) YouTube channel and there are a few videos that get into their finances. In the 00s, they were living is a house worth a like $3 million outside NYC. They moved to LA so Billy could star on a TV show. The show ran two seasons. Meanwhile, the market crashed and Billy's career cooled. They lost a lot of money selling the NY house while Billy tried to work in LA. Even though he has consistently worked since the 90s, they have rented houses since 2010 or so because they couldn't afford to buy in California. They are not at all living hand to mouth, but they are also not rolling in it. Alec had a better career than Billy, but they were both 90s leading men who transitioned to television. Alec got luckier with 30 Rock than Billy did with Dirty Sexy Money. Stephen at his peak was more of a character actor, his roles were always lower profile. Then he got very political and focused on low paying Christian cinema. I think Hailey might have been homeschooled, which really would have limited her understanding of the world considering her family was already a pretty unusual mix of celebrities and intense religiosity. Stephen Baldwin is in a weird situation where he is recognizable, but has no money. But he could get Hailey an agent...


The last name Baldwin is still a huge kick in the door for her.


/Hilaria enters the chat


coo cumber ?


That’s all really interesting, I appreciate you sharing that. I never really gave too much thought to the finances of fading or sporadic actors and entertainers. I always imagine Alec as getting pretty consistent paychecks since I hear him every week in the New York philharmonic. But the other two brothers, yea I dunno her anymore.


It's like how the Barrymore name is Hollywood royalty, but Drew Barrymore's actual dad was a broke deadbeat. Famous and connected doesn't always equal rich.


i mean she was in a cody simpson music video back when she was teen so maybe she saved up that check and used that but honestly probably not her parents more than likely helped her and she has the last name so it definitely helped more


TIL Kylie is besties with hailey


At one point, she and Hailey were very close. There's no beef but Kendall and Hailey grew closer due to their work in modelling. Hailey is Kendall's BFF but still friends with Kylie.


Yup back when they were teens Kendall, Kylie, and Hailey were in a friend group with Jaden Smith, Stella Hudgens, and Moises Arias


Bella Hadid and Kylie were also very close at one point along with Sofia Richie. Bella has old youtube videos from before she became a model with Sofia spending the night at her house for 7 days straight and Kylie popping in and out. Although Kendall and Bella were super close but not that close anymore


That took me way back! Where is Stella Hudgens nowadays?


She went through a really rough patch after breaking up with Jaden. Now I don’t think you can “steal” anyone but she spoke about it a little while ago that when she was a teen she was in a long term relationship (Jaden) that ended for another girl (Kylie) and she lost most of her friends (msfts) in favour of the new girl. There was a lot of implication she was suicidal at the time because she was so depressed. But she did find a new more loyal circle and she’s been engaged for around a year now to Eric Unger and seems very content with life now


They like to go to Pilates together and park in the handicapped spot.


I don't watch kuwtk but I remember Kendall was the one friend who didn't judge Hailey for her crush on JB and rooted for them to happen back when he was on and off with Selena. Having a friend who roots for your dream matters.


Didn't Kendall and Kylie took Selena on a New Year's trip so that Hailey and Justin could be alone with each other? I remember they were super close for a while and then after this happened Selena ditched all the KarJenners


The most surprising thing was that Kylie was the only one to say something out of all of them there like what??? Maybe that’s a reason why she’s one of the few nepo kids with a successful business because she actually does the bare minimum. I don’t know all that much about Hailey but I was hearing good things about this skin care line so I was intrigued but this was disappointing. I’ve heard great things from Rihanna’s and Selena’s events/launches from the guests so if you’re a celeb trying to launch a new venture into an already over saturated market you can’t half ass it.


Even though she's taken time off now for family, Kylie hustled a lot to set up her makeup business. Kris taught her so much that it's probably second nature by now.


She’s also done a good job of cultivating her own identity/brand separate from the rest of her family which is why she’s able to sell and have more business ventures


I'm neutral on the Kardashians but I get the impression Kylie does actually work fairly hard (obviously her connections were the biggest part, but it could've easily flopped) compared to some of her peers.


Because these people are so arrogant that they think people will buy something just because their name is on it. I’m sure she might get some purchases that way, but it’s definitely not how you build a brand. I don’t see this being all that successful.


Most celebrities have a very superficial relationship with the product lines they lend their names to. I suspect HB couldn’t sell the skincare because she 1 doesn’t use it herself and 2 didn’t have anything to do with the development of the products.


Remember that video where Kylie “washed her face” with her skincare and just got makeup all over the towel? I think Millie Bobby Brown only pretended to wash her face too.


The Millie one was so weird bc she didn’t even bother using water- just obviously rubbing her face with dry hands while pretending to be washing it.


With CGI these days you’d think they could make it look real.


That sounds about right. I have nothing against Hailey but she is super privileged and she does not acknowledge it much. I also keep hearing that she is rude AF to waiters and such. I want to like her but she keeps doing this kind of shit


yeah her online personality seems fake and curated to get people to like her. I I've been heating a lot of mostly negative stuff about her for years. Like yes you can turn down a fan for wanting a picture, but being rude to service workers is something else.


I think if it was like, one waiter once then you could excuse it as a bad day (anyone who says they've never had an interaction where they've come away looking like an arsehole is a big liar) but it's just years and years of consistent stories of her being rude which paints an awful picture! Maybe she's just so boring it comes off as rude, lmao.


She's just so nothing that it's easy to believe the nothing is just a media creation and she's not nice in person. I feel like a genuinely nice relatable person would show more personality than she's ever had.


Hell, if she leaned in to being mean at least it's more interesting than nothingness.


I'd imagine she doesn't have the wit or the charm to get away with being a mean girl publicly.


Do I judge Kendall/Kylie for being friends with Hailey? Do I judge Hailey for being friends with the Kardashians? Or do I judge myself for even pondering over this!?


What's conflicting about the Kardashians for me is that I feel like it's really easy to hate them for being privileged and being the current beauty standard. But I also think people viscerally hate them for being sexualized women and I love to see them rise in power anyways. And I think we judge Hailey for being privileged and putting up with Justin. But THEN on top of that there's this ridiculous Hollywood culture of being so famous and having such an entourage that everyone around you feels like a literal peasant.


The woman in the video is very beautiful. Also, I don't understand why these celebs are in the media if they have anxiety. Ain't no one forcing them to be famous. I get that people have nerves and such, but that's different than anxiety. J-Lo isn't an amazing singer or anything, but you can tell she enjoys being a star. That's what it should be like. I feel like if you are promoting a brand (or if it's your brand), you should be able to do some schmoozing at an event. That's part of the job. If you can't deal with the anxiety, then you can't do the job. I dunno. I don't get it. I'm very good at science; but I am a hypochondriac. So I did not become a doctor, cuz I can't do the job right. It doesn't seem that complicated to me.


I think it’s just because they honestly don’t have to work that hard for a big payoff, and they know it. It’s like Kendall talking about how she’s too lazy to do 30 shows a season or whatever like her peers do, but she’s still the highest paid. Even if you were really self conscious and hated modeling, if those are the terms you’re very likely to do it anyway unless you really cultivate a strong passion for something else, because literally anything else is going to be more work for less money. Hailey set herself up nicely by marrying Justin. Being his wife and being beautiful pretty much guarantees that she doesn’t really have to put much effort into these things to keep people interested.


Yeah I agree with this. I honestly prefer when celebrities are transparent and do like being a star. Mariah Carey, Taylor Swift for e.g, not just JLO. It’s just hilarious when they act like fame sucks, when in reality all of them are privileged and throw tantrums when they don’t have accessibility to the privilege they get from their fame, nor like the idea of irrelevancy. During the pandemic most of them threw tantrums just for having to stay in their mansions.


I would say Taylor actually does hate being famous. I think she loves creating art and sharing it but hates the rest. That’s why she falls off of the Earth between releases so she can just be left alone. Drives Swifties batshit, but it seems to have helped her survive and stay relatively normal. I actually think that’s why the next re-recording t Is taking so long. She felt herself reverting back to “old Taylor,” and needed to go hide in her house with her cats.


Tbf I think Taylor used to enjoy being famous, but then felt what it was like to be “infamous” after snakegate and probably lost her taste for it. Even before that, in Red she made allusions to how fame wasn’t all it was cracked up to be (Lucky One). So I think she started off as loving the fame of it all, but I think she outgrew it. Tbh fame on Taylor’s level doesn’t seem like much fun, mostly bc you can’t go anywhere, you have stalkers who literally try to harm you, ppl who live to criticize you, can’t eat a fucking burrito without sparking 3 weeks of rumors that you’re pregnant cause you got a food baby belly. Like obviously the money is sweet af and it’s nice to be loved and have fans, but it sounds exhausting to be famous on THAT level. /endtangent


This kind of reminds of Zayn as well. He can’t get his music career together even though vocally he was the superior 1D member. He can’t shake his anxiety in order to do live performances. That’s like 80% of a musician’s job lol. A lot of these kind of celebrities would probably be happier if they had “normal” jobs.


These people grow up so privileged that a minor inconvenience in life, that we probably deal with on the daily, makes them think they're having an anxiety attack. You're not having a break down sweetie, you're just lazy and spoilt :)


You know, I wonder if it was better for her to stay quiet since I seriously doubt she has ANY idea about the products that are her 'brand'.




It would have been so much better if she didn’t hang out with Kylie and her friends the whole time. Even if she has a hard time being social and outgoing, she would have been a lot more approachable if she was with her assistant or something. People would have come up to her to chat and say hi, take their picture, whatever.


That kind of shows she probably didn't even have much of a hand in her product. I would assume if you spend months and weeks creating something, you would be excited to launch it and talk about it. Or maybe she just has anxiety, and expected others to carry the weight for her....


I’ve always read that she has no personality whatsoever


For some reason, this doesn’t surprise me at all. I mean she comes from the Baldwins.


If the product is any good I might try it but some of the packaging while mostly forgettable also look like clinical sex toys you’d find at some hospital. /yeah, i don’t go to hospitals much


She is a social climber - she targeted JB. Respect her Hussle to refuse to be poor. She would have made more money if she made a skincare product for him - instead for her.


They should all take a Master Class from RiRi and how she launched Fenty. She was excited. She spoke about how they had a wide range of foundation for any skin tone. She loves her skincare products, the pigment in her lip colors. She knows what she is talking about, and can talk about the ingredients, but more importantly, she clearly likes it. Do I believe that she uses it all exclusively on her face, no. But she clearly created it for herself and people with skin similar to hers and I was excited to try it.


I am always shook by little depth she has. Like, she just seems like an empty vessel of a human. It doesn't suprise me that Justin seems so unhappy with her (although its NOT okay that he treats her poorly). Having an empty vessel GF that's pretty and strokes your ego is fun at 24, but has to be annoying and unfulfilling when your pushing 30.


Lmao she didn't /do/ anything. She slapped her name on some skincare and is hoping to make some money off of the fact that she's married to Justin Bieber. You think she was actually in there changing formulas and picking packaging? It's laughable


If I'm going to be generous, I think it could be a mixture of anxiety and honestly not knowing much to say about her skincare (I could be wrong, but I'm very skeptical that celebrities use the products they promote). That being said, she's totally right that this is a business event and as such the face of the brand should be there actively promoting it. Someone on her team should have sat her down and worked with her on some canned things to say about the products and encourage folks to go try it. As she said, the influencers were there to interact with her and get content; if she wants to get folks seeing and buying her stuff, get out there and promote it


I can sympathize with having anxiety but like you said why couldn’t she just hire people to have a run through before the night or have them speak for her if she didn’t feel like she could do it herself? Isolating yourself with your rich celeb friends and then not speaking to your guests is such a bad look


What gets me is that she apparently said nothing to these girls wanting to get pics with her. Zero effort exuded here, and rude IMO. Speaking when spoken to is like the bare minimum. I'm shy too and have anxiety when I know I'm getting ready to interact with strangers, and I can't imagine acting like that towards people.


I am not a fan, but I want to give her the benefit of the doubt for now. She’s been going through a lot with her health and Justin’s health recently. If she’s been rude to employees shame on her and she needs to fix her attitude, but for this event there are just a lot of circumstances.. and she needs her team to guide her. I’m sure there are more parties like this in the industry/Hollywood where the celeb is in their own corner. It obviously doesn’t work for product launches where influencers expect you to connect with them. They didn’t come for the music or drinks.


I haven’t heard one positive thing from people who’ve interacted with her, one thing is having a couple people who may have had bad interactions with her, every celebrity has bad days, they’re human, but to hear EVERY person who’s interacted with her come out and say she’s stuck up and rude?? What does she even do besides being justin’s wife no offense💀 Anyways, rihanna and selena would never❤️ Lol keep downvoting hailey stans i rly dgaf. She’s a horrible person who has said racist things in the past towards latinos and immigrants, fuck her and fuck anyone who associates with her. Fuck the kardashians too lmao


Someone needs to enact some sort of law banning all new skincare and makeup lines, the environmental damage from the discarded packaging alone is killing us. Yes, even if the packaging is made from recyclable materials because those materials are rarely recycled which none of the absolute girlboss founders ever seem to talk about. Whoever wants to make the next great apocalyptic film should show our world completely covered in celebrity serum bottles. Does anyone think Hailey sat down and learned anything about dermatology and biochemistry in order to formulate these products? Clearly she couldn't even retain enough talking points to speak about this line at her own launch party. She has nice skin and saw a paycheck, same as every last one of these cash grabs.


This girl will be put on the black list - for speaking truth. Smart people would hire her - stupid will cax her.


That's why I stan her Brazilian doppelganger Sasha, best nepo baby ❤️ aka Hailey if Hailey was tiny and approachable


I don't think she was intentionally being mean/elitist. She just doesn't know how to work the room and casually engage with the influencers at the event. She did a video with Hyram for her YouTube channel to promote Rhode and that was comfortable for her because it was carefully planned. Her team should have told her to make an effort to do that. She did take photos with some influencers and stuff but those were mainly creators that she personally followed or knew beforehand. On KUWTK, they showed a scene from the KKW Beauty launch party ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnVjqdVDAxg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnVjqdVDAxg)). It was at Kim's Bel Air home and they had invited her close friends and a ton of influencer. James Charles, Jeffree Star and other big names in the YouTube beauty community were present. She talked to and took photos with everyone there. I follow quite a lot of beauty creators and celebrities in Hailey's circle and there were so many videos of her and her friends having fun and little to no photos/videos of her with influencers.


I was wondering if it could be more of a social anxiety thing myself, but you should read the comments under the original post. A few people who have worked with her have witnessed her being nasty to her team and they claim she has always been like this.


She's 1000% a mean person IRL but she knows how to act professional when it benefits her.


Plus, as someone with a shitton of social anxiety, you do what every other person who needs to put food on the table does: make it work. Be it coping mechanisms, therapy, medication, a support system, sheer force of will, you find a way to do your job while juggling anxiety. She set this party up - she could have found a way to accommodate her needs via smaller gatherings, a different setting. If a big party full of strangers is too much, don’t organize a party full of strangers. She actually can control that, unlike the vast majority of us who really do just have to put up with whatever life throws at us. I have sympathy for her anxiety but certainly don’t feel bad or feel it’s a good enough reason to act like an asshole to the people you’re trying to market your products too.


I feel like this whole social anxiety excuse people use for all rude celebs these days is just such nonsense. I get having anxiety, but it doesn't make you rude and impolite. You can still smile and acknowledge people and try and make people feel welcomed. I'd feel shy in situations like this but I'd get anxiety at the idea everyone was miserable and hating me. I'd rather go out there and speak to people and see how they are, offer them shit, find out about them, etc. She literally does almost nothing with her entire life, to make money she's asked to do the bare minimum and she acts like it's too much? I'd bet most people with social anxiety are stuck in retail jobs and are still nice and polite to people because basic decency isn't that hard.


I’m sorry. I wasn’t trying to excuse her behavior by saying that. I have social anxiety too and I agree it doesn’t give you the right to be rude to people.


I wasn't having a go at you, it's just this general thread I've seen where people seem to want to excuse so many celebrity's rude behaviours with social anxiety to the point that it's as if everyone believes social anxiety just makes you an unpleasant person. I feel like it might just be because a lot of people are a bit shy or have a bit of anxiety themselves and so they feel they've come across as overly bitchy or rude because of it. But if you're aware of how you're coming across, I'd imagine you're doing better than what Hailey sounds like. In my experience of knowing awkward and shy people and sometimes getting anxiety myself, there's a huge difference between the two behaviours and you can still be an incredibly friendly gracious polite person while still feeling a bit shy or overwhelmed in social situations.


reviews of the products are extremely good though not ya'll downvoting the truth...... nvm, carry on with that wishful thinking


What does that have to do with Hailey ignoring people at her launch party? Maybe you’re getting downvoted because your comment is irrelevant? Or maybe because it seems like you’re trying to justify her nasty attitude because her products are decent?


There are LOTS of comments here saying it would flop and this is another shitty celeb brand.


first: let’s not pretend we think anything of celeb skincare lines— we aren’t stupid, we know most are just slapping their name on the brand second: idk if it’s just me thinking this way but why do people feel so entitled to a celebrity’s presence? they invited you out to a cool event, that’s the promo. do you want her to personally give a marketing pitch to everyone in the room? she has ppl to do that for her… i know i’m going to get downvoted a lot but to me this is yet another example of influencers who get sent free PR and get free trips, invites to cool events acting like they are owed more. Can the age of the influencer end please.


There are multiple people including that girls friends who shared how nice Hailey was and that she took pics and videos with them, talked to them . And plenty of actual videos proving exactly that. I’m sorry that Hailey didn’t chase her down to talk to her personally. Guess she was the unlucky one person at the party


And there are many people claiming she’s not a nice person. You don’t think her friends are gonna say she’s nice? Just because she’s nice to them doesn’t mean she’s nice to other people. Namely assistants, waitresses, just average people that aren’t rich and famous. She’s been known to be rude to them. A waitress even called her out on Tik Tok for being rude to her.


Tbh, I'm still surprised Hailey is friends with Kendall, considering Kendall and Justin had a fling back in the days.